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Sunday, September 18, 2011< ^ >
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[11:22:24] Mario[guest] joins the room
[11:22:31] <jonas> hi!
[11:22:38] <Mario[guest]> Hi!
[11:22:52] <Mario[guest]> Who is nagzilla?
[11:23:11] <jonas> just for the record: this conversation will be logged, and public accessible!
[11:23:21] <jonas> nagzilla is a bot
[11:23:28] <Mario[guest]> ahh
[11:23:50] <jonas> it doesn't do anything at the moment - I have tried making it link this Jabber-based chat with sms
[11:24:33] <jonas> I responded to your email
[11:24:40] <jonas> did you get it already?
[11:32:40] <Mario[guest]> chekcing
[11:34:15] <Mario[guest]> ok read it
[11:34:29] <Mario[guest]> so, let me quickly tell you first about our private situation
[11:34:53] <jonas> ok
[11:35:00] <Mario[guest]> we have finished the house and have lost of space to host you and other free software / other open people
[11:35:11] <jonas> lost?
[11:35:17] <jonas> you mean lots, I hope :-)
[11:35:20] <Mario[guest]> lots
[11:35:22] <Mario[guest]> ;-)
[11:35:57] <jonas> great
[11:36:09] <Mario[guest]> we will not be very long before the event in Saigon, cause our time is limited and we are working on some cool projects for Japanese - mainly mobile stuff
[11:36:48] <Mario[guest]> Hong Phuc is not focusing on the hospital anymore. during the last years she rather focused on research and learning more about IT and libre graphics
[11:37:04] <jonas> ok
[11:37:06] <Mario[guest]> she made a research for IDC about datacenter
[11:37:17] <jonas> datacenter?
[11:37:41] <Mario[guest]> yeah big datacenter. some companies want to get into the market and paid IDC to research about it
[11:38:00] <Mario[guest]> secondly she focuses on her work with GIZ (German development cooperation)
[11:38:16] <Mario[guest]> she worked with some teachers on ICT and Environmental Education projects
[11:38:22] <jonas> you mean location and contacts for starting a datacenter in Vietnam?
[11:38:31] <Mario[guest]> there are many already
[11:38:42] <Mario[guest]> she interviewed the CEOs about those centers
[11:38:45] <jonas> interesting1
[11:38:46] <Mario[guest]> and gathered data
[11:39:23] <Mario[guest]> the GIZ projects are mostly fine, but surely they do not have only IT focus, but also about how to work with wikis and email
[11:39:27] <Mario[guest]> its quite basic
[11:39:58] <jonas> do they have a wiki about themselves?
[11:40:33] <Mario[guest]> more for gathering internal information
[11:40:46] <Mario[guest]> so, they can create some materials
[11:40:52] <Mario[guest]> they cooperate in those wikis
[11:41:04] <jonas> ah, so internal wikis
[11:41:16] <jonas> for creating school educational material?
[11:41:54] <Mario[guest]> so, the two things where I could imagine you could engage here is a) people have limited knowledge on Linux administration. We had ourselve the problem that people messed up the backup of the server for example.
[11:42:10] <jonas> :-/
[11:42:21] <Mario[guest]> b) we had the idea here of creating a games distro to start from cd
[11:42:35] <Mario[guest]> it would be great if this games distro could be Debian based
[11:42:49] <jonas> there is a games team in Debian
[11:42:54] <Mario[guest]> at the moment Chanrithy is trying to write an html based launcher for the distro
[11:43:01] <jonas> you should work directly with them!
[11:43:05] <Mario[guest]> this would also need to be packaged then
[11:43:09] <jonas> pabs is in that team!
[11:43:20] <Mario[guest]> yes, so, if we could include all the Debian games would be great
[11:43:28] <Mario[guest]> fantastic
[11:43:45] <jonas> that's the aim of the Debian games team, I believe
[11:43:58] <Mario[guest]> ok, i need to check that out more
[11:44:43] <jonas> that issue about sysadmin skills:
[11:45:07] <jonas> I see a pattern not so much about the knowledge on doing sysadmin stuff, but
[11:45:30] <jonas> the balance between experimenting/learning and reliable infrastructure
[11:45:56] <Mario[guest]> yes, sure
[11:46:02] <jonas> especially when doing volunteer work, it is crucial to be able to play - to experiment
[11:46:30] <jonas> ...and when the task is something which needs high reliability - like infratructure - play goes against that
[11:46:46] <Mario[guest]> generally i believe volunteer work in vietnam it is done by foreigners, not so much by vietnamese (maybe one or two days not more if)
[11:47:45] <jonas> a way to handle that is to make a "playground" - an easy way to replicate/regenerate the systems, and play on the copy, not the system others depend on
[11:48:01] <Mario[guest]> Jon Phillips had the idea of having workshops at FOSSASIA in a particular way: In the morning we meet and some people introduce subjects/workshop ideas. These can be a) predefined and b) defined in the morning
[11:48:11] <Mario[guest]> then after the introduction groups get together
[11:48:29] <jonas> jon is coming?  Great!
[11:48:31] <Mario[guest]> these groups work on this project and present their outcome in the evening
[11:48:38] <Mario[guest]> yes, seems like he is coming again
[11:48:50] <jonas> I thought about pinging him about it
[11:49:19] <Mario[guest]> so, for example i could imagine a group of people says "we want to create a new theme for drupal"
[11:49:28] <jonas> you should generally ping the participants from last year - personally rather than just a group mail if at all possible
[11:49:30] <Mario[guest]> in the evening they come back and show us what they have achieved during the day
[11:49:38] <Mario[guest]> ok, will do
[11:50:10] <jonas> I talked to Kounila Keo - she was unaware there was a FOSASSIA this year too
[11:50:23] <Mario[guest]> we will ping
[11:50:25] <Mario[guest]> everyone
[11:50:27] <jonas> great
[11:50:32] <Mario[guest]> we had issues with a location
[11:50:38] <Mario[guest]> but we finally solved it
[11:50:44] <Mario[guest]> and this years location is much more suitable
[11:50:46] <jonas> sounds interesting with that worksession structure
[11:50:56] <Mario[guest]> its not as high tech more university like and more space
[11:51:02] <jonas> do you discuss these things somewhere I could perhaps participate?
[11:51:05] <Mario[guest]> nice yard in front and a mensa
[11:51:27] <Mario[guest]> yes, we had discussions and titanpad set up with Lilly and Job
[11:51:28] <Mario[guest]> Jon
[11:51:31] <jonas> a challenge is that it is only 3 days :-/
[11:51:39] <Mario[guest]> and invited some people in the region
[11:51:43] <jonas> ok
[11:51:57] <jonas> I would love to participate in that, if you find it sensible
[11:52:06] <Mario[guest]> but in the end, we need people who go and meet with the university and so on. so discussions are good, but the actual tasks need to be done locally
[11:52:15] <jonas> sure!
[11:52:39] <jonas> you are the heroes - you cannot delegate that role ;-)
[11:52:42] <Mario[guest]> so, i guess we can well take care of those things. the challenge is to get the participants coming baclk
[11:52:45] <Mario[guest]> back
[11:52:47] <Mario[guest]> :-)
[11:53:10] <Mario[guest]> we will definitely have more students this year. in this university they are very interested in the event
[11:53:17] <jonas> good
[11:53:33] <Mario[guest]> so, my proposal is to get the site up with the new information and work together on promoting
[11:54:01] <Mario[guest]> actually, our plan this year is only 11./12. nov and on 13 an excursion
[11:54:18] <jonas> oh
[11:54:43] <jonas> sounds fun, but eats more precious time :-/
[11:54:48] <Mario[guest]> it would be great if people could spent more time here and we could organize something in advance during the week as well
[11:55:18] <jonas> are you talking about this upcoming event or generally - for later?
[11:55:20] <Mario[guest]> the excursion would be in the way to Cantho again
[11:55:31] <Mario[guest]> so people can work here a few days as well
[11:56:13] <jonas> you mean, everybody goes to Can Tho on sunday?
[11:56:17] <Mario[guest]> by the way, we had the Open Design Weeks here with the Open Source Publishing Group from Brussels. it worked out well this way with them
[11:56:29] <Mario[guest]> yeah, everyone who wants comes over
[11:56:42] <jonas> hmm
[11:56:53] <Mario[guest]> but if you want you can also come later
[11:57:08] <jonas> unfortunately, there is a Mini Debconf in Thailand a week later :-(
[11:57:15] <Mario[guest]> wow, cool
[11:57:16] <Mario[guest]> again Thailand
[11:57:18] <Mario[guest]> yep
[11:57:22] <Mario[guest]> where is it?
[11:57:25] <jonas> did you see my draft plan?
[11:57:31] <Mario[guest]> where?
[11:57:42] <jonas> http://wiki.jones.dk/DebianAsia2011
[11:58:05] <Mario[guest]> ok got
[11:58:05] <Mario[guest]> it
[11:58:08] <Mario[guest]> ahh
[11:58:30] <jonas> leaves little room _after_ the FOSSASIA event, unfortunately
[11:59:45] <Mario[guest]> no pb
[11:59:52] <Mario[guest]> would be great to have you at the event
[12:00:00] <Mario[guest]> and a couple of days earlier
[12:00:03] <jonas> also, events are right now being organized in Bangalore _before_ the FOSSASIA event too
[12:00:09] <jonas> ok
[12:00:22] <jonas> I will attend FOSSASIA, for sure!!
[12:01:12] <jonas> fundamentally, what I can offer is my knowledge and my time - I do not have money to spend on travel costs
[12:01:13] <Mario[guest]> great
[12:01:19] <Mario[guest]> so, wow what a big travel plan
[12:01:24] <Mario[guest]> i need time to understand it
[12:01:38] <jonas> I can come join you in january if you are able to fund the transport
[12:02:04] <jonas> ...which would not be expensive, compared to getting me over from Europe
[12:02:12] <Mario[guest]> yep
[12:02:24] <Mario[guest]> where will you be in January?
[12:02:40] <jonas> home - if nothing gets planned _very_ quickly!
[12:03:15] <jonas> the two exspensive flights define the outer frame of the trip
[12:03:36] <jonas> I need to book those flights before prices rise too much
[12:03:42] <Mario[guest]> you mean you could come to Vietnam again after India?
[12:03:42] <jonas> I don't know when that is
[12:03:47] <jonas> no
[12:04:18] <jonas> I mean I could push return dats of both espensive flights - so visit you from Malaysia
[12:04:53] <Mario[guest]> ahh. yes that would be great.
[12:05:07] <jonas> well, I could visit you from India too, but that is more expensive, obviously
[12:05:37] <Mario[guest]> i need to talk with Hong Phuc what is her plan. She is in China at the moment.
[12:05:42] <jonas> my hub in East Asia is Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
[12:05:46] <jonas> ok
[12:06:17] <Mario[guest]> so, you are writing that you have the idea of building some custom systems
[12:06:20] <Mario[guest]> together with people
[12:06:31] <Mario[guest]> do you have some examples?
[12:06:59] <Mario[guest]> what would make sense in the region?
[12:07:00] <jonas> One famous example is FreedomBox
[12:07:17] <jonas> but FreedomBox is also tricky to talk about
[12:07:38] <Mario[guest]> well, yes, in the political situation
[12:07:41] <jonas> it is easy for geeks to be carried away by the dreams of what it might fulfill
[12:07:58] <Mario[guest]> but could be ok, if we focus on the reliable business with freedom box
[12:07:58] <jonas> no, even without the potential political issues, it is tricky
[12:08:23] <Mario[guest]> well, there are many ways to build it and what it can do
[12:08:40] <jonas> I talk about the tricky thing of looking at it realistically - what can be implemented in one year, rather than in ten!
[12:08:54] <jonas> another example is Skolelinux
[12:09:28] <Mario[guest]> hm. i think he we rather look what can be implemented in one week
[12:09:31] <jonas> I have no simple examples
[12:09:36] <jonas> yes
[12:09:45] <jonas> that is a challenge
[12:09:49] <jonas> a good challenge!
[12:10:43] <jonas> when you say one week, you mean 7 days? or (like last year) one day during that week?
[12:10:58] jonas think about that cafe session
[12:11:26] <jonas> such simple examples are not unrealistic
[12:12:10] <jonas> I have such challenge in takengon in december
[12:12:54] <jonas> but my interest is in long term sustainability
[12:13:02] <Mario[guest]> ok
[12:13:37] <jonas> so what I want from a one week session is a good initiation of a project - something with concrete milestones, but not something that is "finished" after that one week
[12:14:24] <Mario[guest]> yes, milestone
[12:14:31] <jonas> like sysadmin stuff: I do not believe that I can provide you the "perfect" way to run a service - some setup that need no touching or tuning afterwards
[12:14:34] <Mario[guest]> nothing is really finished .. ever ;-)
[12:14:39] <jonas> exactly!
[12:16:33] <jonas> Example of a Debian not-yet-pure Blend doable within a week:
[12:16:49] <Mario[guest]> yes
[12:17:21] <jonas> generate a flavored Debian that by default installs systems in your own language, with the packages you prefer, and with a desktop image of your choosing
[12:17:35] <jonas> ...but that is only a milestone
[12:18:03] <jonas> it should then be maintained, and refined, and be integrated fully with Debian
[12:19:11] <jonas> If 40 people each do an individual draft Blend during a one-week session, then hopefully they see a point in grouping together and make one or two that is longer-term sustainable
[12:19:42] <jonas> ...and even if they don't - what they created during that one week is usable as-is!
[12:20:09] <Mario[guest]> cool
[12:20:55] <Mario[guest]> but i would like to give them a few examples what blends they could do
[12:21:07] <jonas> the idea of customizing a distro is not new - there are many tools to do that
[12:21:11] <Mario[guest]> people here might not be able imagine
[12:21:20] <jonas> ok
[12:21:21] <Mario[guest]> for them its new
[12:21:24] <jonas> ok
[12:21:28] <jonas> good point!
[12:23:33] <jonas> The project Tran Duy Hung worked on
[12:23:40] <jonas> while I visited you
[12:23:55] <jonas> that one would be a good example, I had hoped
[12:24:10] <jonas> ...but his interest in that apparently died out when I left :-(
[12:24:57] <jonas> it is so veryt crucial to reach a milestone of "something usable" during that initial hands-on work session!
[12:25:57] <jonas> I will try compose some samples, for inspiration!
[12:27:56] <jonas> how quick do you think you can get hold of Hong Phuc and figure out if you perhaps can raise the travel money for a visti by me in January?
[12:29:46] <Mario[guest]> ok
[12:30:15] <Mario[guest]> Hung left our company
[12:30:25] <Mario[guest]> he wants to come back though maybe
[12:30:27] <jonas> oh
[12:30:45] <Mario[guest]> the thing here is - what i tried to tell you before - people do not think longterm here
[12:31:09] <Mario[guest]> they think in smaller steps. so projects that go the basics and take time to fulfill are more difficult here.
[12:31:22] <Mario[guest]> better are projects that have a steep learning curve
[12:31:35] <Mario[guest]> same when they work in the company
[12:31:35] <jonas> ?
[12:31:42] <Mario[guest]> two months is a long time for them
[12:32:00] <Mario[guest]> so people come and go
[12:32:38] <Mario[guest]> so about January - do you have an idea about how much funding would be needed?
[12:32:54] <Mario[guest]> and how long would you stay in vietnam?
[12:34:02] <jonas> the money needed is the easiset to answer:
[12:34:20] <jonas> I need whatever money to cover the transport
[12:34:48] <Mario[guest]> from KL?
[12:34:55] <jonas> yes
[12:35:26] <jonas> if decided _very_ soon - so that I can buy those other flight tickets accordingly
[12:35:46] <jonas> the other one is more tricky - how long...
[12:36:14] <jonas> hold on a minute - I'll consult my girlfriend on that!
[12:37:11] <Mario[guest]> ok
[12:59:52] <jonas> I'm back
[13:02:28] <jonas> I could stay for 1, 2 or 4 weeks. Please help hem try imagine what could be usaful
[13:03:56] <jonas> s/hem/me/
[13:11:02] <Mario[guest]> ok, so the question is what you want to do during that time
[13:11:09] <jonas> yes
[13:12:05] <jonas> I want to work on these simple cases
[13:12:33] <jonas> if I already succeed making some simple cases ahead, then I want to introduce them to others
[13:13:06] <jonas> if not, then I want to create them - together with some more skilled others (if you happen to have some of those around)
[13:13:52] <jonas> what would you want from me during that time?
[14:01:53] <Mario[guest]> sorry Jonas, for the delau
[14:01:54] <Mario[guest]> delay
[14:02:16] <Mario[guest]> it would be cool, if we could define a few projects and groups of people interested
[14:02:38] <Mario[guest]> i think your idea to build some systems would be good.
[14:02:44] <Mario[guest]> let me think with Hong Phuc together about it and get back to you
[14:02:56] <Mario[guest]> until when would you need us to tell you?
[14:03:28] <jonas> very very soon
[14:03:37] <jonas> few days, preferrably
[14:03:46] <jonas> how soon can you get in touch with her?
[14:08:23] <Mario[guest]> she will be back in vietnam on nov 21
[14:17:31] <jonas> november 21st is way too late :-(
[14:17:54] <jonas> she will not attend FOSSASIA?!?
[15:17:31] <Mario[guest]> sorry sep 21
[15:45:04] <jonas> ahh
[15:45:40] <jonas> ok - I'll gamble and hold my breath until 21st.
[15:45:58] <jonas> Please get in touch with me as soon as you know more, ok?
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