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talks@conference.jones.dk
Saturday, September 29, 2012< ^ >
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[04:26:32] nagzilla leaves the room
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[12:49:40] melvin[guest] joins the room
[12:49:51] <melvin[guest]> ust a test ...
[12:49:57] <melvin[guest]> just
[12:50:19] <melvin[guest]> nice to see this is still running!
[12:55:13] <jonas> hi
[12:55:24] <melvin[guest]> hi! :)
[12:55:43] jonas was eating lunch
[12:55:55] <melvin[guest]> im just looking at setting up a kind of freedombox with various components
[12:56:07] <jonas> ok
[12:56:21] <melvin[guest]> it looks like both jwchat and xmppchat are not that well maintained in the last 2 years?
[12:56:34] <melvin[guest]> prosody seems active tho
[12:56:50] <jonas> what looks unmaintained? the FreedomBox project or this site?
[12:56:59] <jonas> ah
[12:57:05] <melvin[guest]> no ... the jwchat site and the xmppchat site
[12:57:20] <jonas> agreed, both those two upstream projects are fairly unmaintained, I believe
[12:57:35] <jonas> works for me, for this use
[12:58:07] <jonas> prosody and ejabberd are both well maintained
[12:58:37] <jonas> I want webchat app to be separate from either of those
[12:59:18] <jonas> a daemon is a daemon, a web app is a web app - a combo is a monster
[13:00:08] <jonas> what kind of freedombox are you aiming at?
[13:00:42] jonas listening to the Orb
[13:04:33] <melvin[guest]> oh nice ... i used to have some of the Orb albums ...
[13:05:32] <melvin[guest]> i met with markus last month and he had a dreamplug and a guruplug ... at the moment I'd like to get a FBX compatible system running on my desktop/laptop
[13:06:14] <melvin[guest]> webchat as separate makes sense
[13:06:34] <melvin[guest]> I'm also thinking about running a webchat with WebID login
[13:07:07] <melvin[guest]> or writing a patch perhaps ... WebID does not have any kind of chat yet
[13:08:26] <melvin[guest]> mind you yes, both jwchat and xmppchat seem to work reasonably well
[13:08:52] <melvin[guest]> perhaps I can make a WebID chat room
[13:09:02] <jonas> would be quite cool
[13:09:35] <melvin[guest]> i still have the site http://webid.im/  maybe ill just put prosody on there
[13:09:58] <jonas> ok
[13:10:35] <jonas> a freedombox compatible system really is same as a Debian system
[13:10:39] <melvin[guest]> what do you think is easier prosody + jwchat  OR prosody + xmppchat?   I know you said xmppchat to me before ...
[13:11:07] <melvin[guest]> yes I always run debian ... but I'm keen to start seeing interoperability working on the web side
[13:11:21] <jonas> jwchat and xmppchat has different use
[13:11:34] <jonas> jwchat exist as a Debian package
[13:11:47] <melvin[guest]> many people think interoperability comes by magic, but it takes a lot of hard (but also fun) work :)
[13:12:01] <jonas> I use xmppchat here because it is simpler to get people into a public chatroom (a.k.a. MUC)
[13:12:04] <melvin[guest]> yes I saw in nick's freedom maker jwchat is one of the packages installed
[13:12:17] <melvin[guest]> yes that does work nicely
[13:12:32] <melvin[guest]> I'm sort of looking for some quick wins but also future proofed
[13:12:35] <jonas> if he put it in, then it is becuase my way old recommendation still stick :-D
[13:12:35] <melvin[guest]> if that makes sense
[13:12:40] <melvin[guest]> lol
[13:13:20] <jonas> Summer 2011 I met with Bdale and recommended to use XMPP
[13:13:32] <jonas> ...and concretely to throw in jwchat
[13:13:39] <melvin[guest]> makes a lot of sense
[13:13:46] <jonas> noone has come up with better proposals since then
[13:14:08] <melvin[guest]> i wonder if FBX needs a team working on the Web aspect
[13:14:09] <jonas> makes sense if you are a realist - not if you are a dreamer who wants to create the future
[13:14:30] <melvin[guest]> I'm always happy when I see things that start to work ...
[13:14:37] <jonas> if you ask me (which you sort-of do) then freedombox needs no more teams
[13:14:53] <melvin[guest]> too many teams?
[13:15:22] <jonas> IMO freedombox needs someone throwing together instances of Debian and declare those as freedombox mockups
[13:15:41] <melvin[guest]> nick is the main person doing that right?
[13:15:51] <jonas> forming teams may cause progress or may cause division
[13:15:59] <melvin[guest]> true
[13:16:02] <jonas> nick is doing what he wants to do
[13:16:23] <jonas> we need more people doing what they feel is fun and needed and (above all) realistic doable!
[13:16:39] <jonas> alone or in teams - doesn
[13:16:45] <jonas> doesn't matter
[13:17:06] <melvin[guest]> ah cool ... eben did say thank you to nick personally in his last talk, which was nice
[13:17:22] <jonas> ok
[13:17:38] <melvin[guest]> the 'first law of robotics talk' I think it was, if you havent seen it
[13:17:40] <jonas> I am unaware of Eben ever saying thank you to me
[13:18:05] <jonas> he was too busy to say hello when I was in New York in the spring
[13:18:13] <melvin[guest]> oh ... pity :(
[13:18:35] <jonas> ...or to even respond to my emails telling that I would be in town
[13:18:43] <jonas> ...for 2 weeks
[13:19:09] <jonas> but hey - that means Nick picked something visible
[13:19:09] <melvin[guest]> that's a shame ...
[13:19:18] <jonas> I picked something less visible
[13:19:41] <jonas> ...like whining when others want to use PHP
[13:21:32] <melvin[guest]> For which work I am endlessly grateful to Bdale Garbee and Jaems Vasille and Nick Daly, and many others who have been hacking on FreedomBox over the last 18 months.
[13:21:44] <melvin[guest]> http://www.softwarefreedom.org/events/2012/hope_moglen-speech-2012.html
[13:24:06] <melvin[guest]> i talked to some of the pagekite people too
[13:24:20] <melvin[guest]> interesting option to CNAME the service to your own domain
[13:25:12] <melvin[guest]> what webserver are you running?
[13:25:20] <jonas> I do not see pagekite as a Freedombox tool
[13:25:37] <melvin[guest]> pagekite, why not?
[13:25:37] <jonas> I use apache - because that's what I am familiar with
[13:25:46] <melvin[guest]> yes I'm running apache too
[13:26:38] <jonas> I have started getting to know uwsgi
[13:27:19] <jonas> I try isolate each non-static piece as a uwsgi service
[13:27:51] <jonas> ...and then for now I serve all those uwsgi services together with static content using apache
[13:28:03] <melvin[guest]> interesting
[13:28:16] <jonas> ...but expect to then try switch to other lighter "umbrella" service
[13:28:45] <jonas> I cannot easily try out other ones yet, because too much is configured in Apache
[13:29:11] <jonas> I have succeeded running Perl PSGI stuff and PHP stuff as uwsgi daemons
[13:29:32] <jonas> ...but annoyingly not WSGI yet - which it was supposed to be ideal for
[13:31:04] <jonas> specifcally I now run these with uwsgi: CiderWebmail, a home-developed sms-to-AtomPub gateway, and a horribly old php CMS
[13:31:25] <jonas> ...but I have not succeeded teaching uwsgi to run MoinMoin :-(
[13:31:32] <melvin[guest]> which cms?  i thought u didnt like PHP? :P
[13:34:12] <melvin[guest]> do you mind if I add your WebID to my friends list?
[13:35:33] <jonas> you are quite welcome!!!
[13:35:47] <jonas> share yours, and I'll do same
[13:36:30] <jonas> eZ Publish 2.x
[13:37:57] <jonas> http://snapshot.debian.org/package/ezpublish/2.2.8-2.1/
[13:38:05] <jonas> I was package maintainer for it
[13:38:29] <jonas> I have two websites still using it
[13:38:33] <melvin[guest]> mine is http://melvincarvalho.com/#me  ... sorry no https right now ... im working on it ... but I do snapshot my key history regularly
[13:39:15] <melvin[guest]> http://publickey.info/
[13:39:36] <melvin[guest]> it's quite funny googlebot seems to like crawling that and each time it adds extra history of your keys
[13:40:33] <melvin[guest]> the reason I do that is so that you can check out a key if you see it the first time, to see how old it is etc.
[13:42:19] <melvin[guest]> its quite funny i just added my WebID and google goes out spidering the social graph for me and each time there's a hit I store a record ... still a bit basic but I'll improve it when I get some time
[13:42:26] <jonas> ahh, so it is _that_ Melvin I am chatting with :-D
[13:42:32] <melvin[guest]> hehe lol
[13:42:48] jonas was wondering how many Melvins was enthiusiastic about FOAF ;-)
[13:43:03] jonas listening to System 7
[13:43:41] <jonas> I use mpd-sima to auto-switch music for me :-)
[13:43:52] <melvin[guest]> nice
[13:44:03] <jonas> oh, that's another dream service I want on freedombox
[13:44:08] <melvin[guest]> i used to run a juke box over webid
[13:44:11] <jonas> intelligent music jukebox
[13:44:17] <melvin[guest]> i has one running
[13:44:23] <jonas> tell me more!
[13:44:23] <melvin[guest]> not so intelligent, more random
[13:44:27] <jonas> ahh
[13:44:35] <jonas> that's less interesting, then
[13:44:44] <melvin[guest]> but joe presbrey of MIT had somethign cleverer
[13:44:47] <jonas> do you know mpd-sima?
[13:44:51] <melvin[guest]> iceweasal or something iirc
[13:45:05] <jonas> ieweasel cannot fit on a freedombox!
[13:45:29] <jonas> I want the reasoning to take place on the home-owned server, not inside the browser!
[13:46:06] <melvin[guest]> no iceweasel wasnt the name ... ill ask joe, but we were doing quite well at one point on the music stuff
[13:46:26] <melvin[guest]> nathan (webr3) is big on music too
[13:47:00] <jonas> ok
[13:47:04] <melvin[guest]> we can easily build a friend to friend music system
[13:47:13] <jonas> then do it!
[13:47:29] <jonas> I have *all* my music Musicbrainz tagged!
[13:47:51] <jonas> ...but I lack the skills to apply reasoning to it
[13:47:51] <melvin[guest]> lol good idea ... so many thing to work on ... but I think there's 5 people that would be interested in a music system
[13:48:00] <melvin[guest]> me, you, joe, nathan, henry story
[13:48:13] <melvin[guest]> and I think it's not a huge amount of work
[13:48:20] <jonas> henry will write something in horrible (to me) Scala
[13:48:23] <jonas> :-(
[13:48:26] <melvin[guest]> lol
[13:48:39] <jonas> what is your coding environment of choice?
[13:48:44] <melvin[guest]> maybe not henry then :)
[13:48:47] <jonas> I only really grok Perl
[13:48:59] <melvin[guest]> i tend to do a little bit of everything
[13:49:01] <jonas> ...and not much of that even
[13:49:12] <melvin[guest]> i was one paid to write java, but found it quite boring
[13:49:24] <melvin[guest]> (once)
[13:49:57] <jonas> I currently try promote semweb by packaging all semweb-related Perl packages that I can get hold on
[13:50:24] <jonas> ...and then hope that it helps the Perl community to use it more
[13:50:24] <melvin[guest]> awesome ... toby inkster is a great perl programmer, but he's less active than he was since he had his baby
[13:50:45] <jonas> he is really awesome, yes
[13:51:16] <jonas> I joined some of the w3.org mailinglists, but cannot post to them :-(
[13:51:22] <melvin[guest]> you cant?
[13:51:25] <melvin[guest]> why not?
[13:51:38] <jonas> it's been I while since I tried
[13:51:57] <melvin[guest]> strange, I can ask one of the admins for you if you have problems
[13:51:59] <jonas> I believe it was picky about reverse dns or something
[13:52:05] <melvin[guest]> ah
[13:52:28] <melvin[guest]> i found out today that tim owns www.www.org lol
[13:52:40] <melvin[guest]> (berners lee)
[13:52:48] <melvin[guest]> hopefully going to meet him next month :)
[13:52:50] <jonas> it was picky about some issue that I also check for myself via blacklists but do not take as sole reason for rejection, only hint for a larger score keeping
[13:52:59] <jonas> heh
[13:53:20] <jonas> will you be at the event in Berlin in october?
[13:53:43] <jonas> unfortunately I cannot make it - I have a job doing sms for a theater performance in Switzerland around that time
[13:53:56] <melvin[guest]> no I dont think so, I was at the unhosted conference last month and will try to go to TPAC in lyon but tned not to go to too many conferences
[13:54:24] <melvin[guest]> oh wow cool ... i have some friends in bern and zurich ... theatre sounds cool, i didnt know you were an artist :)
[13:54:35] <jonas> I am not
[13:54:37] <melvin[guest]> s/tned/tend
[13:54:40] <jonas> ah
[13:54:50] jonas was wondering what that typo was
[13:54:55] <melvin[guest]> lol
[13:55:14] <jonas> ecidently I am not a crypto guy either ;-)
[13:55:17] <jonas> evidently
[13:55:40] <jonas> ...since I couldn't "crack" that typo
[13:55:44] <melvin[guest]> lol
[13:56:15] <jonas> my main customer is a creative business school here in Denmark - Kaospilot University
[13:56:26] <melvin[guest]> oh cool
[13:56:43] <jonas> one of the former students - a friend of mine - starts a branch of that school in Bern at the beginning of October
[13:56:52] <melvin[guest]> oh nice!
[13:57:03] <melvin[guest]> one of my best friends from school lives there
[13:57:07] <jonas> ah
[13:57:15] <jonas> Bern feels like a nice town
[13:57:17] <melvin[guest]> and their fire department will hopefully get sem web enabled soon too!
[13:57:22] <jonas> heh
[13:57:52] <melvin[guest]> i think fire engines should have a QR code on the side
[13:58:05] <jonas> makes sense
[13:58:06] <melvin[guest]> so you can put it in your phone and it will show you all the linked data about that fire engine
[13:58:10] <melvin[guest]> where it is going
[13:58:12] <jonas> it is a public thing
[13:58:14] <melvin[guest]> where it has been
[13:58:20] <melvin[guest]> how many fires
[13:58:29] <jonas> yes - a public thing with a history
[13:58:41] <melvin[guest]> would be an amazing app
[13:58:52] <jonas> a public physical thing with a history
[13:59:02] <melvin[guest]> people are fascinated by fire
[13:59:17] <jonas> you didnt
[13:59:28] <jonas> you didn't tell me your preferred coding language
[13:59:48] <jonas> C? Python? Lambda?
[14:00:07] <jonas> (not that I know Lambda beyond the name of it)
[14:00:19] <melvin[guest]> i dont really have a favourite ... ive been forced to do a lot of java ... C is nice, it was my first language, I'm getting more into javascript these days
[14:00:27] <jonas> ah
[14:00:32] <jonas> you like Nodejs?
[14:00:37] <jonas> Coffeescript?
[14:00:45] <melvin[guest]> i tend to stick with mainstream languages ... yes node + plain old JS
[14:00:47] jonas maintains those for Debian :-)
[14:00:53] <melvin[guest]> oh cool!
[14:01:00] <jonas> I maintain too much
[14:01:21] <melvin[guest]> in time to come there will be more people helping
[14:01:38] <melvin[guest]> the net seems old, but it is still young really
[14:01:49] <jonas> what is very frustrating about Nodejs in Debian is that a technical detail cause it to not be included in next stable release
[14:02:01] <jonas> our World is young
[14:02:06] <melvin[guest]> lol true
[14:02:16] <melvin[guest]> ah pity
[14:02:40] <jonas> I saw a youtube video recently, pointing out that Cleopatra is closer to our time than that of the _creation_ of the pyramids
[14:03:19] <jonas> we are 2000 years away - the pyramids are about 3000 years away in the other direction from her
[14:03:43] <jonas> also, one species of dinosaurs are closer to our time than another
[14:03:46] <jonas> :-D
[14:04:08] <jonas> especially that last one made me realize how tiny our time really is
[14:04:15] <melvin[guest]> lol i think the first pyramid was the 4th dynasty at 2600 bc
[14:04:22] <jonas> ...and how quickly we can mess it up
[14:04:23] <melvin[guest]> (wikipedia not used) :)
[14:04:58] <melvin[guest]> well there were much fewer people living at that time, so it's not a completely linear comparison
[14:05:02] <jonas> ah, so I was wrong - she is really only closer to us by a margin of 1-200 years or so?
[14:05:25] <melvin[guest]> im just going from memory, the doucmentary is probably right
[14:05:48] <jonas> ah, you mean the speed of invention is exponential due to the growing size of our collective brain?
[14:05:52] <melvin[guest]> but we do more in 1 year now in terms of economic activity that would have happened in many decades in early history
[14:06:03] <jonas> I am paraphrasing from the video
[14:06:33] <melvin[guest]> it's not a simple formula but certainly innovation is happening at an ever increasing rate
[14:06:40] <jonas> yeah
[14:06:54] <jonas> singularity
[14:06:59] <melvin[guest]> lol
[14:07:32] <melvin[guest]> i study a lot of mythology
[14:07:35] <melvin[guest]> in my spare time
[14:08:05] <jonas> my bonus son (as it is called nowadays) should a few years ago write about robots, and I found him a 3-piece BBC series about the topic
[14:08:32] <jonas> I thought it was the topic of robotics - but turned out it was the topic of singularity
[14:08:41] <melvin[guest]> ahh
[14:08:41] <jonas> ...without mentioning the term
[14:08:52] <melvin[guest]> there was a singularity conference
[14:08:53] <jonas> ...or at least me not noticing it mentioned
[14:08:59] <melvin[guest]> i watched some of the videos
[14:09:16] <melvin[guest]> one argued that the internet is becoming conscious
[14:09:45] <jonas> I found it quite fascinating, and told a friend about it when at Debconf 10 in New york in 1010 - instantly he said "Singularity!" and I didn't know what he was referring to
[14:10:28] <jonas> when I try explain to others what fascinates me about semweb, I make the comparison between internet and a baby
[14:11:02] <jonas> I am interested if you could find out who made that connection before me
[14:11:15] <jonas> I have no intention of stealing fame for the idea
[14:13:46] melvin[guest] leaves the room
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